"To be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Yeshua Hamashiach through the gospel." Eph.3:6
Wednesday, January 18, 2012
The oral Torah. Authority of God or man?
Skepticism should not be thought of as a dirty word. Even for believers. There is nothing wrong for us believers to question things that Judaism sees as sacred, such as the Talmud.
Quite often the Apostolic Writing is bashed by traditional Judaism, for the reason that it claims to be as authoritative as the Written Torah. But at the same time the Rabbis own a vast amount of documents that were written many years after the Torah itself was written, which they claim as holding a greater authority than the Torah.
According to traditional Orthodox Judaism, Moses, at Sinai, received two sets of Laws, rules and regulations. The "written Torah" which includes the five books of Moses, and the "Oral Torah" that they claim, was given in order to be transmitted to the leaders of Israel. This "Oral Torah" is a series of arguments, opinions and commentaries that enable each generation to interpret the Torah according to the needs of that time. In this way, the Rabbis say, the Written Torah remains inflexible, and irrelevant. The need for such an accompanied document is usually explained in this way: "God told us not to work on the Shabbat day. But what constitutes work? God surely would not tell us to do something without explaining how to do it in the right way, right? Therefore the "Oral Torah" is absolutely necessary." Because of this claim, the Rabbis own an incredible vast amount of volumes that explain every outlook of the everyday life of a Jew.
This, astonishingly, makes the Rabbis not only emissaries of the new laws, but the makers of these laws. Orthodox Jews will say that this transfer of authority is part of God's plan, like it is really a fact that God gave His authority to this process. Some, explain it in this way: "actually, God limit Himself from intervening directly in the halachic process. He prefers an orderly process instead of miracles and voices from Heaven. When supernatural events are allowed to sway halachic decisions, all the structure of Torah study-the pillar on which all Judaism leans- will collapse. The moment the ability of the Sages to interpret Torah is stripped, the arguments and conversation of the Talmud become meaningless. If Judaism is supposed to be a dynamic way of life, which refereshes itself time and again, it is the right of the Sages to decide on a halacha that have to be independent from godly authority of cancellation." ( Natan T. Lopez Cardoso The torah, written and Oral P. 76.
So, the question arises, how do we become the people who decide at what level God is involved or not, in the decision making?
The Mishnah was the first time that the Oral Torah appeared in writing. It includes data that was available 100 to 200 years beforehand. But, is there any proofe that these "laws" originated at Mount Sinai? This is an important question. If at Mount Sinai there was no authority given to interpret the Torah and set up halachot, then it means that the Rabbis never had any Godly authority to do so.
By the same token, Non-Orthodox Jews need to understand that the traditions of their belief are man-made. A tradition that denies Yeshua as Messiah. Many are pointing to certain writings of the Sages that speak of Yeshua cannot be who He is. But aren't these writings a response of Rabbis who lived in the time of Yeshua, who decided that Yeshua is a threat to their authority? Leaders who cared only for their political standing?
How accurately was the Oral Torah transmitted from generation to generation?
Between Moses and the writing of the Mishanah there were 1000 years in which the Jewish people went through many storms and changes, that included, Living in the Land, exile and assimilation. These events, often, caused the people to forget the Torah Laws. If the Written Torah was neglected so easily, how much more is the case of Oral Torah? Is it really possible for the Oral Torah to be remembered in exactly the same way from Sinai to the Mishnah?
The Rabbis state many different reasons to the importance of keeping the character of the OT (Oral Torah), as oral compared to the written Torah. One of the reasons is that keeping the rules oral protects the OT from falling into the wrong hands. If this reason is so important, then why write the OT in the first place? The Rabbis answer is, that if the laws of the OT would not have been written, Judaism would have not survive. They point to the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. But didn't the OT survived the destruction of the 1st Temple? Would not God continue to protect her, if her validity is the case?
Is there any hint in the Written Torah for the existence of an Oral Torah?
The Rabbis will point to Deut. 17:8-13 and say, that the Rabbis have sole authority to interpret the Torah and tell us how to live our lives. Anyone who refuses to listen to them is guilty of sin in the eyes of God. This is a complete fabrication of the text. These verses do not mention any Rabbis. They only relate to the role of Judges who set at the city gates and decide on difficult cases. The passage does not give the Rabbis, who came later in history, the authority to say to the Jewish people how to handle every detail in their private, or corporate lives. In fact, there is no mention in Scriptures that gives humans this kind of authority, an authority that exceeds the words of the Torah and the Prophets, who spoke through the inspiration of God. The Talmud says that anyone who reject the notion that Moses gave us the written and Oral Torahs, does not have a share in the world to come. There is no hint to that in the Scriptures.
Bottom line is, whereas the Tanach does not say anything of Oral Torah, it speaks of a New Covenant to come Jerem. 31:31-33.
It is not that the Talmud is devoid of value, but when Rabbis read what Rabbis before them wrote instead of reading the Scriptures themselves in order to seal their authority, authority which denies Yeshua, the Oral Torah has to be questioned.
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Dan you and I are Jews. Where does us being Jews put us with our brethren in regards to the Oral law/s?
ReplyDeleteDo you believe there should be Messianic halacha?
Marc
Marc,
ReplyDeleteYeshua adhered to some oral laws and participated in the traditions. As long as these laws and traditions do not nagate the written Torah there is no harm in following them. They are not authoritative.
Halacha cannot be central, only local. The Messianic movement is too fractured.
First question: Did God give an "oral Torah" to Moses on Mt.Sinai? Since only God and Moses were there and their discussion of 40 days and nights was not recorded, we don't know for sure. We do know that there are directives in the Torah that cannot be properly obeyed because the Torah doesn't say *how* to obey them (how do you tie tzitzit? How do you make the fringes blue? How do you perform a kosher slaughter?). Either God gave Moses the instructions to answer these and a thousand other questions, or He left it up to Moses and the other authorities among the Children of Israel to figure it out for themselves.
ReplyDeleteActually, God did sanction human beings to make specific judgments on matters of Torah. I find nothing wrong with citing Deuteronomy 17:8-13, but we see the template for this structure in Numbers 11:16-30 with the establishment of the 70 elders. In fact, we see the basis for human beings in Israel being given the authority (along with the Spirit) to make rulings and judgments because (apparently) God knew there'd be a ton of questions about how to get things done and Moses, being only one man, couldn't interpret every little detail for a population of millions.
Was that authority passed down to the Talmudic rabbis?
Moses received the Torah from Sinai and transmitted it to Joshua; Joshua to the elders; the elders to the prophets; and the prophets handed it down to the men of the Great Assembly. -Pirkei Avot 1:1
Supposedly, yes, but since Pirkei Avot is part of the Talmudic system, you could easily reply that the information recorded in this Mishnah is man-made and therefore unreliable, fake, and just plain lousy advice.
But *somebody* had to interpret the Torah for the various Jewish communities. Otherwise, everyone would just be "shooting from the hip", so to speak. It wasn't like Moses or Jesus was going to be around every day from then until eternity to answer questions like, "When exactly does Shabbat begin and end?", "How should I lay my tefillin?", and "May a Kohen recite the birkat kohanim when the Temple doesn't exist, and if so, under what conditions and circumstances?"
In Orthodox Judaism, the Torah is interpreted by tradition. That is, there are specific and accepted halachah for each community based on the rulings of the local Rabbi and greater authorities and how they interpret the various Mishnah. Notice there's no one, overriding halachah and affects all Jews everywhere. Why? Several reasons. Mainly, because not all Jewish authorities agree with each other, so you have competing opinions and different communities respond to different Rabbinic standards.
Think about Christianity for a minute. While authoritative structures aren't quite so formalized, different denominations have their own official theology that affect their communities but are not accepted by different denominations. Among Christian scholars, there are accepted standards for properly interpreting scripture and generally, those scholars don't approve of individuals simply making up "what the Bible means" based on an individual’s emotional state at any given moment of time.
If not all Rabbinic (or Christian) rulings are internally consistent across all populations, then it becomes impossible to say that all of those rulings come directly from God. Or, we'd have to say that God tolerates a great deal of variation in what He considers acceptable, finding favor, so to speak, in both the Ashkenazi and Sephardic halachah, even though they don't always match up (not to mention the various traditions in different Christian churches and the various flavors of "Messianic Judaism").
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ReplyDeleteIf all of the various little religious communities in the Jewish/Messianic/Christian world have different binding rulings (yes, the church and Messianic/One Law congregations make binding rulings, because *somebody* has to make a decision about how to get stuff done), either they're all wrong or God tolerates them all, making all rulings tacitly "right" or (and here's the biggie) only *one* religious group out there is "official" and the rest of us are posers. Of course *everyone* says they're the right one, so who can tell?
I've already said you can't have a religious group without tradition and if you have leaders in your congregation, then those leaders have the authority to make binding decisions. People choose to accept those decisions as binding and if they don't, they leave. The same is true in the various branches of Judaism (which is why there are different branches of Judaism and different denominations of Christianity). When people disagree, they split off and make their own groups. The same is true in the "Messianic" world, which is why it's one of the most fractured religious traditions on the face of the planet.
I've written at length on these topics including my recent blog posts Jesus, the Oral Law, and the Talmud and Tradition! Are the Talmudic Rabbis "right" about everything and absolutely correct interpreters of Torah? Probably not, at least if you consider the Torah to be a list of immutable, unchangeable rules and regulations that never adapt across time and the needs of different Jewish communities. Are they "right" for their own communities? Probably, in most cases (there is some question about the excesses of the Haradi community, especially in relation to the treatment of women).
Give example of Halacha being local.
ReplyDeleteA Messianic congregation that one Shabbat has only meat Oneg, and the next Shabbat only milk Oneg, compared to another Messianic congregation that allows both milk and meat for Oneg.
DeleteHi James I believe that Moses Seat was completely biblical. Yeshua said to listen to them but not their hypocrisy.
ReplyDeleteJames,
ReplyDeleteYou really surprise me. Either you are just continue pushing your agenda with a complete disregard to what I wrote, or you do not understand what is at issue. In both cases you are missing the point.
First, if God gave the Oral Torah to Moses at Sinai, and it carried as much authority, why didn't Moses announce it as he did the written Torah? You are arguing from silence, which proves nothing.
Numbers 11:16-30.
no authority was given to the elders to write laws, only to judge on difficult matters of the existing Law. Even Moses did not have this authority. I thought you understood this.
Anyone can interpret the Torah, but the Mishnah, and Talmud is full of man-made laws that have no connection to the written Scriptures, yet the Mishnah is regarded as a sacred book within Judaism. A part of the canon of Judaism. On what authority?
Competing opinions? Different rabbinic standards? Thank you for making my point. who's opinion do you take? FFOZ's?
What you are trying to do is anachronistically match laws and regulations. God does not find favor in anyone's halacha. He only finds favor in those who obey His word. Why do you think He destroyed all the high places where the Israelites offer sacrifices? After all there was no Tabernacle. He did not find favor in the people willing to sacrifice, He could, couldn't He? But He commanded only to sacrifice in the place He put His name at.
James,
ReplyDeleteAgain, you miss the point completely. I am not against the Talmud being a koobaya book. I wrote this to show that the Rabbis did not have any authority to legislate. It was not given to them at Sinai, they took it by themselves. To have a kosher blue in the tzitzit constitutes a new law. God only said blue, but if I dye my tzitzit with a blue marker, for them I am a sinner. Where did they receive this authority? Only God can judge me on that.
Dan, I don't think you read everything I wrote or maybe, it didn't all make it in the comments section here. I didn't say that everything from the Rabbis was from God. I did say that communities have the right to interpret scriptures and establish standards for themselves based on their understanding. Since many Rabbinic authorities disagree with each other, they can't all be right, unless God tolerates a wide degree of "rightness". But they still have to make decisions and in the absence of other data, they use traditional methods that have developed over thousands of years.
ReplyDeleteFrom my limited point of view, they can go too far in their conclusions, but then, that's not my world and it is not binding on me. On the other hand, how much different is your congregation in terms of traditions and rulings? Do you read the Torah cycle in the traditional manner? If so, you also have man-made traditions. Who gave you the authority to do that?
If God does not "find favor" in man-made traditions, then what happens everytime you call up someone for an aliyah or light the Shabbos candles, which are "traditions of men" and absolutely not found anywhere in the Torah? At some point, in order to function, not only have you interpreted the Torah, you have exceeded it's scope by either making up traditions, or accepting Jewish practices that have their origins in the Talmud.
James,
ReplyDeleteI did write the artical in bite-size paragraphs. I don't know what happened after I pressed the publish button. I apologized on Derek's blog.
James,
ReplyDelete"I didn't say that everything from the Rabbis was from God."
I didn't say this either. The Rabbis say it, and therefore they see their ruling as authoritative.
If you know anything about the Mishnah, you will agree that it is "a document of imagination and fantasy, describing how things "are" out of the sherds and remnants of reality, but in larger measure, building social being out of beams of hope." (Neusner). (koombaya). Yet Jews from the end of the 2nd century to our own day deemed the study of the Mishnah to be a holy act, because they have been conditioned that the Mishnah is a principle holy book of Judaism. To the Orthodox Jews the Mishnah is sacred, equaling, and sometimes surpressing the authority of the Written Torah. why?
I didn't say this either. The Rabbis say it, and therefore they see their ruling as authoritative.
ReplyDeleteTheir rulings are authoritative, just not Divinely so.
To the Orthodox Jews the Mishnah is sacred, equaling, and sometimes surpressing the authority of the Written Torah. why?
The Mishnah and subsequent writings are what took the place of the Temple. If the Temple had never been destroyed, Jewish history would probably have taken a very different course. The traditions became what defined Jewish religious and cultural life. In a sense, it is holy to study Talmud, not because Talmud = Torah, but because it's the means by which Jews understand themselves, the world around them, and in a way, God.
If the Rabbinic sages or any Jew today sees the Talmud as greater than Torah, I can't agree with that, but up to a point, something has to be present to interpret Torah, otherwise it is impossible to operationalize the Word of God. Is all of Talmud necessary for that purpose, probably not. Is some of it necessary to "fill in the gaps?" Probably so.
No need to apologize for a formatting problem. Life happens.
James,
ReplyDeleteWhy do you refuse to deal with the fact I raised that there is no authority from God for ANYONE to legislate?
Divine authority can only be found in God's word, never in man-made laws. You, hiding behind the "interpreting" word, is bothersome.
"For before us is a remarkable statement of concerns for matters not only wholly remote from our own world but also in the main, alian to the woeld of the people who made the Mishnah itself. It is as if people sat down to write letters about things they have never seen, to people they did not know-letters from an unknown city to an undefined and unimagined world: the Mishnah is from no one special utopia, to whom it may concern." (Neusner).
So, the balony that the Mishnah took the place of the Temple, is just that, balony.
Dan, how do you justify any religious tradition, including your own, that establishes traditions in an authoritative manner and makes them binding on the community? I know it's no where near the extent of say Orthodox Judaism, but to one degree or another, every religion does it. If you don't have enough information from the Bible to make all of the detailed decisions required to obey the commandments of God, what are you supposed to do about it?
ReplyDeleteLike it or not, we make decisions about our faith all of the time. If God doesn't allow us to do that *and* if he doesn't provide all of the tiny, little details that are required to obey His commandments so we don't have to make such decisions, what's the third option?
James,
DeleteYou keep dancing around the subject. Traditions are traditions, and laws are laws. The Mishnah is full of laws that have no connection to the laws of the Torah. Laws, not interpretations. Why can't you answer a question? Or at least try to understand what I am saying? I don't justify any religious tradition. You know why? because if I veer from the established tradition, people like you will say I am creating my own traditions.
I understand what you're saying is that you believe there is a total disconnect between the Mishnah and the Torah and that the Jews should just toss 2,000 years of culture, wisdom, and history and interpret the Torah by the plain text alone (even though that's impossible). You haven't answered any of my questions about how you understand the man-made traditions of your own practice. If it's wrong for the Talmudic sages to render rulings, why is it right for OL/Messianics to make up their own traditions and rulings?
ReplyDeleteAlso, is literally *everything* in Talmud completely disconnected from Torah? What about how to know when Shabbat has begun and ended, how to tie tzitzit, how to make the color of the fringes blue, how to know if a kohen can recite the priestly blessing in the absence of the Temple? Seems like all of those have something to do with the Torah.
Also, keep in mind that the Torah isn't just a bunch of "religious laws". It's also a guide to day-to-day living which I believe the Talmud also addresses (sometimes in abundance). You don't have to like the Talmud. You don't have to obey halachah. No one is shoving this stuff down your throat. Why does it bother you if other Jews do respond to halachah? They're not affecting you in the slightest (or me, for that matter). You act like you're worried about halachah and must discount and destroy it at all costs. Why? Are you afraid you might find out some of it actually matters to Jews and may even be important in defining Jewish life?
The only point where I tend to inject Talmud into a conversation with Messianics/OL (and I've used the example before), is when I see a bunch of Gentiles get together and decide they can create a "Judaism" all by themselves with just a few pieces of "equipment" (talit, siddur, kippah) and a Chumash, and substitute their own "man-made rules" in place of any Jewish halachah, then say they're "obeying the pure Torah of God".
" You haven't answered any of my questions about how you understand the man-made traditions of your own practice."
ReplyDeleteI did answer, as in the case of the Techelet on the tzitzit. I am still waiting for your reply....
My reply on what? I've answered you in several different ways and at length. I never said that the Talmud was the embodiment of the Word of God. I have said that it is a reflection of post-Second Temple Judaism's attempt to survive as a religion and a people. Part of it really does interpret the many questions of the Bible, and part of it addresses the shifting concerns and needs of the Jewish people across the vast span of history and across the many cultures they encountered.
ReplyDeleteWhy are you so angry on this issue? You seem to be taking it personally.
Which response of yours contains your answer about tzitzit? In this mass of textual exchanges, I've missed it.
OK, I found the reference:
ReplyDeleteTo have a kosher blue in the tzitzit constitutes a new law. God only said blue, but if I dye my tzitzit with a blue marker, for them I am a sinner. Where did they receive this authority? Only God can judge me on that.
So what you're saying is that, where the written Torah is silent, there are no acceptable community standards whatsoever and any person can do what is right in their own eyes. One person can use a crayon to color their fringes blue, another can use Easter egg dye, another can use a magic marker.
On such a holy object? Maybe Jews actually took their observance seriously enough to ask a learned sage the best way to color their tzitzit, or maybe the information about the original process or at least the original accepted practice survived. If Judaism wants to create a community standard and then, over time, label it "right", so what?
You don't have to obey that standard, only the community that willingly follows that teaching "encodes" it right or wrong. If you want to color your tzitzit with a magic marker, I don't have a problem with it. But it follows the accepted standards in your community or maybe just your own personally accepted standards. Trust me. If a religious leader makes even an informal rule, in 2 or 3 generations, it becomes a "law". That's human nature.
Right here:
ReplyDelete"Again, you miss the point completely. I am not against the Talmud being a koobaya book. I wrote this to show that the Rabbis did not have any authority to legislate. It was not given to them at Sinai, they took it by themselves. To have a kosher blue in the tzitzit constitutes a new law. God only said blue, but if I dye my tzitzit with a blue marker, for them I am a sinner. Where did they receive this authority? Only God can judge me on that."
You are not getting my point. Wait you are actually do get it....You are sying that I have the right to question their authority to call me a sinner, and vote with my legs. Isn't that what i have been saying all along?
ReplyDeleteIs that what you've been looking for? Yes, you have the right to question authority (the authorities seem to always question each other)and to "vote with your legs" by "leaving Dodge" if you choose. No one is bolting you to the floor of the Chabad synagogue, Dan.
ReplyDeleteJust to let you know that I really do look into all this stuff and question authority myself (not that Rabbinic authority applies to me), I read an interesting article about a Rabbi ruling that, under certain circumstances, a Jew shouldn't turn on their tap water faucet on Shabbat. I think I can understand the concern, but it seems a little "over the top", even for me.
BTW, thanks for commenting on my blog a little while ago.
Good. Finally we agree on something.
ReplyDeleteBTW, see if you can get a hold of Jacob Neusner's "THE MISHNAH a new translation." Read the introduction, it is very good.
Thanks for the suggestion, Dan. I found the book at Amazon and was able to browse the Introduction for free. Actually, I've read similar comments in some of the essays contained in The Cambridge Companion to the Talmud and Rabbinic Literature.
ReplyDeleteThe Talmud is a compelling and incredibly complex document and I can see how people can study it all of their lives. I do "dabble" in various texts related to the Talmud (the quotes on my blog probably confirm this), but I don't literally think it's the word of God. I do think it is the struggle of Judaism to define itself and sustain itself across the thousands of years since the destruction of the Second Temple and how Jews are trying to maintain their identity and culture into the 21st century and beyond.
I know. I probably just started another argument. Sorry. ;-)
"but I don't literally think it's the word of God."
ReplyDeleteBut that is exactly what the Rabbis think. Glad you are recanting your statement that "maybe" the Oral Torah was given at Sinai....
Whoa. The Talmud isn't the Oral Law given at Sinai. We don't know how much, if any, of the Oral Law could have possibly survived between the Sinai event and the destruction of the Second Temple, possibly none. However the Oral Law is not an equivalent term for the Talmud.
ReplyDeleteI don't know if I'm recanting anything I previously said so much as clarifying. Just want to keep that clear.
Talmud is an "Interpretation" and commentaries on the Mishnah. Doesn't it makes you wonder why a document you describe as interpreting the Written Torah needs it's own interpreting?
DeleteOK, Dan. You got me thinking. And when I think, I write. Here's more of an "answer", which I call Defining Judaism: A Simple Commentary.
ReplyDeleteDan,
ReplyDeleteA very interesting post. These are important issues to contemplate.
-Peter
Thanks, Peter.
ReplyDelete