" 4 Although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more: 5 circumcised the eight day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecuter of the Church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless. 7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as a loss for the sake of Messiah. 8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Yeshua Hamashiach my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things and count them but rubbish in order that I may gain Messiah. (Philip. 3:5-8, NASB).
Allowing Scriptures to interpret Scriptures the text speaks for itself. Paul is proud of his heritage and pedegree, but count it all rubbish for the sake of Messiah. What things were gain to Paul? Can we include Rom. 9:4-5 in the list? One does not need a special long commentary to understand what the plain meaning of the text say: Paul does not consider one's "original calling" as something "unique."
Let's look at other passage in the same context:
"17 Only as the Lord has assigned to each one, as God has called each, in this manner let him walk. And thus I direct in all the churches. 18 Was any man called already circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? Let him not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God. 20 Let each man remain in that condition in which he was called." (1 Cor. 17-20, NASB).
Again, allowing Scriptures to interpret themselves without performing all kind of theological gymnastics V. 19 is clear: circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing. Once again we can see that for Paul one's "unique calling" does not have any meaning.
Messianic Judaism UMJC style affirm Paul's admonition to remain In one's original calling, but then they fall in the mud of "do what we say, but don't do what we do."
By sunctionig Conversions for Gentiles they openly show their disregard for Paul's "rule for the Churches." How can they convert people and still teach that one should remain in his/her "original calling?" Their answer, the way I see it is, anytime some sticky issue arises, the Three organizations who are all under the UMJC Umbrella (MJTI, Hashivenue, and the MJRC)are divesting themselves from each other. Of course it does not solve problems. It is obvious that something in their theology smells.
Derek Leman says that the term "rule" means "generally" and that David Rudolph who is a friend is supporting his decision. then, maybe I did not quite understand Rudolph's question in the 1st page of his article? "Should a teaching that Paul considered IMPORTANT ENOUGH TO BE UNIVERSAL RULE be almost universally neglected by contemporary Christians?" (Emphsize mine).
So there we have it (or maybe I should say "I have it"). Having said all this, I just want to join others in commanding David Rudolph for writing an article that provoks us to think.
"By sunctionig Conversions for Gentiles they openly show their disregard for Paul's "rule for the Churches." How can they convert people and still teach that one should remain in his/her "original calling?"
ReplyDeleteDan, what you're doing in your One-Law place is exactly converting Gentiles to your style of "Judaism", by teaching that Gentiles should Judaize themselves and live according to Jewish customs (or Jewish customs according to Dan). While you claim (beyond belief and scriptural evidence to the contrary) that Torah doesn't teach that adults must be circumcised as one of the stipulations of the Covenant, you "conveniently" teach that Gentiles must circumcise their children instead as a sign of the Covenant. How is that not advocating conversion of Gentiles to Judaism, if not in the first, than certainly in the second generation? It sure is!
As anyone case plainly see, you yourself as well as the other One-Lawyers ignore Paul's rule and much of NT, but on a much, much grosser scale that UMJC/MJRC could ever even hope to do or you imagine them to. In fact, unlike UMJC/MJRC, which make conversion totally voluntary with zero obligation and certainly do not promote them to Gentiles, you make conversions obligatory because you believe that ALL Gentiles (and especially their children, who, as I said, you believe should be "cut") must Judaize themselves so that they can become "non-Jewish Israelites."
"Don Quixote Shlomovitch" strikes again...using his favorite weapon---Red Herring.....LOL!
ReplyDeleteDan:
ReplyDeleteYour spelling is an embarrassment to the state of Israel, LOL.
Clarifying a few facts. The UMJC does not sanction or recognize Messianic conversions. The only conversions the UMJC recognizes are those done before a person came to faith in Yeshua.
The MJRC and MJTI/Hashivenu are not related except that many of the people at MJTI and in Hashivenu are also in the UMJC. Hashivenu is a forum of MJTI. MJTI is an approved school by the UMJC. Sorry for those who don't like F.L.A.'s (four letter acronyms). If anyone is confused, find the UMJC at umjc.net, MJTI at mjti.com, and Hashivenu at hashivenu.org.
MOST IMPORTANTLY, I am surprised when an Israeli mind is incapable of incorporating paradox and multiple layers of meaning.
If you stick to black and white interpretive methods, you won't be able to understand the Bible and will find contradictions all over the place. General rules can have exceptions. I could cite numerous biblical examples, but here is the most obvious one. God prospers the righteous. This is all over Psalms and Proverbs and elsewhere. But there are exceptions and the wicked are sometimes prosperous and the righteous suffer innocently. This is in the Psalms also and dominates Job and Ecclesiastes.
Your thinking needs some suppleness and complexity.
Derek Leman
@Dan: David Rudolph didn't like your questions. Big surprise there. Honestly, I don't how a "scholarly" brain works when they make stuff up out of whole cloth.
ReplyDeleteI don't like magic shows. I don't like theological smoke and mirrors either. You cut through Rudolph's smoke, as usual. I like your no-nonsense common sense... oh wait, that is an Israeli thing, right ?
The whole notion of "conversion" to Messianic Judaism is curious to me. Is the Anti-Gentile wing of Messianic Judaism so myopic they cannot see that conversion does nothing for their standing in greater Judaism? It NEVER will. Never mind that it flushes Paul's words down the theological toilet. I can understand conversion to Orthodox Judaism. I don't agree with it, but at least there is some benefit - this faux conversion (if conversion creates faux Jews, does MJ conversion create faux-faux Jews?) merely permits goyim to aliyah in Gene's shul (laughing). I am sure he is a nice fellow, but I hardly think it is worth the effort for our Gentile brothers who are wanting to flock to south Florida.
Derek,
ReplyDeleteGlad you got the message despite my spelling. Oh, wait...You didn't....
Did you convert before you came to faith in Yeshua? I don't think so, and they still Sanctioned (spelled it right this time?) your conversion, did they?
"Multiple layers of meaning..."
It can only mean one thing, you are trying to divert the issue. I think that I have demonstrated exegetically that Paul was clear when he said "circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing..." He did not say, "well, it can mean multiple things..." This is not what we get from the plain meaning of the text. interpreting any other way is reading one's agenda into scriptures.
"General rules can have exceptions..."
I also showed that Rudolph does not see it your way. have it out with him.
Now, Derek, I would like you to understand that I in no way is questioning your heart (I would have not read your blog if I did). I fully understand (after all I am Jewish), but I take issue with the way the F.L.A painted themselves into a corner.....
Rick,
ReplyDeleteIn their zeal to become a part of mainstream Judaism, MJ, in this case the UMJC, have no choice but to invent all kind of starange doctrines in order to acheive their goals.
>> Glad you got the message despite my spelling. Oh, wait...You didn't....
ReplyDeleteLOL. Oh, guys...
As I've mentioned previously, the whole conversion thing relative to MJ has always seemed somewhat mysterious to me. First off, Paul discourages Gentiles from being converted (and I'm putting this mildly) and further, states that a Gentile who feels it's necessary to convert to Judaism in order to worship the Jewish Messiah is throwing away Yeshua's bloody, sacrificial death.
ReplyDeleteFurther, if a person converted from being a Gentile to Judaism before becoming MJ, at the point of becoming MJ, the original Jewish authority that performed the conversion (Orthodox, Conservative, or Reform, to instance) would consider that person as having converted back to Christianity or simply as having nullified their conversion to Judaism.
If a person were a Gentile and converted directly to MJ directly, the larger Jewish community wouldn't validate the conversation in the first place, since the traditional Rabbinic Judaism sees MJ, any form of it, as a type of Christianity.
Naturally, you have to take into consideration what God sees and thinks, which is the most important thing. Who does God think is Jewish? Since there are a number of human-made conditions in place that are requirements for a person to convert to Judaism, it's hard to say what God's original template for conversion might have been.
Dan:
ReplyDeleteThe UMJC does not recognize my conversion. Individuals in the UMJC are free to recognize or not recognize it. But as an organization, the UMJC rejects the validity of Messianic conversion.
As for David Rudolph, I already told you, he believes that there are reasons for valid conversion.
Rick:
When you say, "David Rudolph did not like your questions?" what are you talking about? I am not aware than Dan and David have had any discussions online or in person. You should not say to the world something about David Rudolph that is without basis.
And if you think either that Dan or yourself have a good case against David's paper, where can we find this convincing case which answers David Rudolph's clearly laid out points? I think Dan agrees with David's paper, so you have misunderstood completely what this is about and have commented in apparent ignorance. Correct me if I am wrong.
Derek Leman
Derek,
ReplyDeleteYou can find the exchange with Rudolph here:
http://roshpinaproject.wordpress.com/2010/07/21/david-rudolph-on-pauls-rule/
Where in my comments did you get the idea that I agree with David's paper? I think I layed out the contradiction of conversion quite well...
@Derek, my comment was directed at Dan, he knew I was speaking about the online exchange between he and Mr. Rudolph. I was specifically addressing the fact that Dan pointed out the contraditions in the paper, and yet the questions about those contradictions went unanswered by Mr. Rudolph.
ReplyDeleteTry to keep up OK? < grin >
Rick,
ReplyDeleteHow can I reach you privately?
The matter of conversion should be cut and dried (maybe an unfortunate use of words there). Paul leaves no doubt at all about this. No theological double talk can LEGITIMATELY get around this:
ReplyDeleteMark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.
And
Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised.
How do Paul’s words compare to these:
“…if the motivations for conversion are based on a healthy sense of identity and a persistent desire to belong to the people of Israel, there is no problem.”
(see http://derek4messiah.wordpress.com/2010/07/28/jewish-roots-and-non-jews-part-2/#comment-10681 )
As I pointed out in a now deleted comment on that blog, my cousin, born as a male, has what he sees as a “healthy sense of identity and a persistent desire to belong to” the female gender and as such is planning a sex change.
According to the "conversion" reasoning above, my cousin's choice is no less legitimate.
Too often the parts of scripture we don’t like are subjected to the theological twist, often turning the scripture around to obscure its clearly intended meaning. This is usually done to justify our own desires when they contradict God’s.
I recently discussed this issue my wife (who is Jewish). We know a family where the husband is Jewish and the wife is Gentile (which makes their son Gentile). He was secular for many years until he started attending Chabad. His wife and their young son were attending the Messianic/One Law congregation in our area, but she felt the need to worship with her husband, and so she joined him at the Chabad, apparently remaining in her faith as Messianic/Christian.
ReplyDeleteI recently heard she was considering converting to Judaism. In her case, this would mean denying the Messiah Yeshua, which disturbs me greatly, particularly with Luke 12:8-9 in mind:
"I tell you, whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God. But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."
My personal belief is that, if God made me a Gentile, he intended me to be a Gentile. Who am I to contradict him? My wife's response is that some people have "Jewish souls".
I don't know if I can go with that because it's sort of like a transgender person saying God made a mistake and created them the wrong sex. If a person converts because they believe that God won't love them unless they're a Jew (and that being a Gentile isn't good enough), then it's wrong. I believe this is the situation to which Paul is speaking.
If, on the other hand, a person realizes that, as a Gentile, they are already in God's love, but believe they want to take on the full identity of Torah obedience and live as a Jew (perhaps because they have married into a Jewish family), I can understand their reasoning.
I don't think that conversion is always 100% out of the question, but that any approach to conversion should be well thought out, researched, and the person's motives, conscious and otherwise, need to be fully explored before such a process is even begun.
That said, if a person converts to Judaism within the Messianic framework, they are not denying Yeshua out of hand. If they convert from a Christian/Messianic faith to a non-Messianic Jewish framework, they are denying Yeshua to their detriment.
Onesimus,
ReplyDeleteDerek is wrong, only for the fact that nowhere in Scriptures does it say that conversion makes someone belong to Israel. The ritual of a proselyte is a later rabbinical invention.
Onesimus:
ReplyDeletePaul's command not to be circumcised is part of a letter to a specific congregation about a specific issue. We are often taught to take Paul's words all as timeless principles or commands, but we should remember these are letters. Don't take my word for that, discuss it with a Bible scholar you know and trust.
The situation Paul referred to was conversion in order to be accepted by God (a false gospel that plagued the Pauline churches).
Conversion for other reasons does not violate Paul's intent.
Derek Leman
Derek,
ReplyDeletethe quotes I included above are from two separate letters to two separate churches.
Derek,
ReplyDeleteAre you now inventing you own Bible? there are at least 34 instances where Paul refers to circumcision in other Epistals to other Churches. I wonder why most commentators call the influencers in Acts 15 who told the gentile to get circumcised, I wonder why they call them Judaizers?
You need to stop this Derek....
Now show us where in Scriptures did calab went through a ritual of a proselyte?
BTW, I am glad that Rudolph supports your conversion, but please tell him that he cannot have it both ways. If he supports your conversion, then his theology is flawed because he specifically teaches that "everyone should stay in his original calling..." You didn't.
Off topic somewhat, but the question of "Who is a Jew" never seems to be answered to the satisfaction of all. The bar is very high in Israel's Rabbinical Court according to this article:
ReplyDeleteNot Jewish Enough
If this woman is not Jewish enough, what hope is there for Messianic Jews?
"It's as if one day you wake up and you're no longer a Jew in the Jewish State but outside Israel you are still Jewish enough to be hated by most of the world," Rubin says. "It's a weird feeling. It's hard enough to grasp the idea that your Judaism may not be valid but then to be told you're not actually Jewish according to the Jewish state - it's ostracizing."
@Tandi, I know I'm going to take heat for saying this, but I occasionally have "issues" with how the Jewish state decides who's Jewish. Certainly this young woman was Jewish enough to be allowed to make Aliyah and gain Israeli citizenship. Did the rules change between 2006 and now?
ReplyDeleteOne of the problems I don't often find addressed in the world of Messianic Judaism is how the rest of the Jewish world views them. I had a rather extensive discussion on this issue with my wife last night. She was asking me about the Mark Kinzer book I'm reading, so I outlined my understanding of its basic premise to her.
She's been spending a great deal of time taking classes from the local Chabad Rabbi and her response was what you might expect (she's not Messianic). The rest of the Jewish world doesn't recognize Jewish people who believe Yeshua is the Messiah as Jewish. This is a painful reality in the current world but we must consider how God views people and not just how people view other people.
The concept of a Rabbinic court goes all the way back to Exodus and establishes the Jewish right to form a group of judges who can make authoritative rulings about Written and Oral Torah, including defining who is and isn't a Jew. That said, there is a point where you can't override God and that, when the Messiah returns, who we are in Him, Jew and Gentile alike, will be revealed in absolute terms.
In the meantime, people such as Hillary Rubin and an untold number of Jewish people in the Messianic movement will suffer the insult of being told they are "not Jewish enough".