Musing on the subject of Jews and Gentiles in the body of Messiah.
The line in the sand has been drawn. The battle lines has been marked. The arguments have been long and drawn out, mostly in an un-civil manner. (guilty as charged). Now the time has come for an assessment, at least for me at this point.
Messianic Judaism as we know it today was formed as a JEWISH, I repeat, a Jewish organization. Note the emphasis is on the word Jewish. A communist JEWISH organization or a satanic JEWISH organization are first, and foremost a JEWISH organizations, and as such Messianic Judaism as a Jewish organization has the right to operate along Jewish lines. It means they can deny non-Jews an equal standing in their congregations, or if they want they can exclude Gentiles completely from their midst. It is their right. Just like the state of Israel has the right as a Jewish state to refuse Aliyah to non-Jews.
The fact that Messianic Judaism is erring according to Scriptures, or that their aim (to become a part of mainstream Judaism) is laughable, or that some gullible Gentiles are willing to be treated as second class citizens, is another matter. What matter at this moment in the history of "Messianism" is that Messianic Judaism UMJC, and MJTI style are a Judaism and it is their right to discriminate against non-Jews.
So where do we go from here?
I, as a Jewish person am appalled by this racist, prideful attitude. Years ago, when we saw in our community what is coming, we changed our title from a "Messianic Jewish congregation" to a "Messianic Torah community." We agreed that we will not be caught dead identifying with such an abomination. So let us, who reject the "Deja-Vu all over again" error of the book of Acts, form our own organization, an organization where Jew and Gentile can truly be fellow heirs, and not be counted within an organization where Jews are more "fellow" and Gentiles are less "heirs."
Hope to hear from you my fellow heirs.
P.S. If some in the MJ camp think I am a bit harsh here, well, I meant to be.
It would be really, really nice to have an option beyond MJ/BE and OL. I have long believed that this option existed in the first century as established by Paul, Peter and the other emissaries to the Gentiles, but was lost in the subsequent church/synagogue schism. I believe it's Messiah's intent that the sheep from both pens be one flock with one Shepherd. If we don't re-establish this now, he'll do the job when he returns. I don't know how it'll look...but I bet it'll be perfect.
ReplyDeleteI'm reading your blog with much interest and appreciation, Dan. Keep telling it like it is.
ReplyDelete"So let us, who reject the "Deja-Vu all over again" error of the book of Acts, form our own organization, an organization where Jew and Gentile can truly be fellow heirs, and not be counted within an organization where Jews are more "fellow" and Gentiles are less "heirs.""
ReplyDeleteWhat I find rather amusing (and quite hypocritical) of the One-Law movement is that within One-Law circles and congregations there are hardly any Jews present. In your congregations Jews and Gentiles are as one flock? PLEASE, spare me. You speak of some supposed "unity" that you facilitate between Jews and Gentiles, but in reality OL ideology has caused far more strife between Jews and Gentiles (since most Jews do not appreciate Gentiles pretending to be "Jews"). Heck, OL has caused far more strife and disunity between Gentiles themselves, no less exemplified by the fact that "One-Law" Gentiles have pitted themselves against the "pagan"/"Christian" Gentiles. You created your OWN flock of angry goats, butting heads with everyone around them (since everyone is wrong, but you guys!)
Dan, you already are part of your OWN organization, since you are not part of any Jewish work and against most of the existing ones. You are part of a loose ideological alliance of Christian Sabbatarian churches, sort of like a disorganized Seventh Day Adventism led by Tim Hegg.
P.S. If some in the OL camp think I am a bit harsh here, well, I meant to be. (© Copyright Dan Benzvi, used without permission).
ReplyDeleteHallelujah!! Finally....
ReplyDeleteDon Quixote Shlomovich decided to visit my blog... You all know Don Quixote Shlomovich don't you? The one who sees Imaginary enemies behind every tree? The one self proclaimed defender of Judaism against the big bad windmill boogy man of One Law?
Get over it Gene, Judaism will survive without your scare tactics. like you said, One Law does not have many Jews, so what are you scaring every body for? why don't you face the real problem of Assimilation, the jews who attending Churches? There are far more there than in MJ, don't you think so? And BTW, if do did not gigure this out yet, there are far Less Gentiles in the one Law movement than in the MJ movement.
Here you have it, compare to the problems you are facing with Jews in the Churches, and Gentiles within MJ midst, we are choped liver....insignificant, don't you think so?
Gene, you are not harsh, just silly...
ReplyDeleteDan:
ReplyDeleteI think it will be a great thing when the independent Messianics, Two House, One Law, and Torah keeping non-Jewish groups form organizations that differentiate themselves from Messianic Judaism. This would relieve some of the tension I feel is between us (the Jewish MJ I am part of and the universal Torah movement you are part of).
I'd love it if such groups did not use the term "Messianic" because: (1) we used the term first and (2) the world outside, Jewish and non-Jewish, thinks "Messianic" means Jewish followers of Yeshua. So, we get blamed, as it were, for the things that are said and done in non-Jewish Torah communities.
While we may disagree about the role of Torah for non-Jews, the animosity has largely been about Jewish followers of Yeshua trying to have some space that is for us. Conventional churches won't support our Torah and traditional lifestyle and non-Jewish Torah groups won't support our belief that Jewish identity is vital and should not be confused and denied as a continuing reality.
Derek Leman
Derek, thanks for the comment. I can see at least that you look for rationality and I tend to agree.
ReplyDeleteAs for: "Non Jewish Torah groups wont support our belief that Jewish identity is vital and should not be confused and denied as continuing reality."
This shows me that you are not exactly familiar with what One-Law teaches. Jewish identity is not denied (otherwise I would be out), the opposite is true, there is an ethnic distinction. It is within MJ that ethnicity is blurred (You are a primary example).
@Derek:
ReplyDeleteI first heard the term "Messianic" back in the early 90's but assumed Messianic Judaism was just for Jewish people. This prevented me from discovering torah as relevant to my life for ten more years. Oddly, it was ffoz that got me on the torah track in 2001. And now they are derailing many.
Tandi,
ReplyDeleteI think Derek said it tongue-in-cheek, unless he is willing to give the people of Antioch an exclusive on the term "Christianity" since they were the first ones called Christians....
Love your blog Dan.
ReplyDeleteIt all sounds nice and neat: Gentiles go to the church, mean One Law Gentiles go to the Non-Jewish-former-Messianic congregation, and then Jews get Messianic Judaism... Oh wait, that won't work. There really are some Jews in the mean One Law group, and there are LOTS of Jews not in Messianic Judaism. Then there are former Jews in the Church - and former Jew-turned-non-Jew-but-now-Jew-again in Messianic Synagogue. Then there are those who aren't Jewish, but claim they are by some crypto methods - and those who aren't Jewish, but with a wave of a knife and some words get to pretend that they are... man, where does it end?
I have a great idea (not mine, but I will claim it): We do what the Bible does: identifies us by our father's ethnicity - and then treat each other like we are all in the family of Israel. I think I have read about this before, now where is the leather-bound book?
It seems to me if distinction (and equality) are as important as some say, the best way to achieve it is recognize that we are all one family. Israel was always supposed to be a singluar people, and yet they remembered and held distinction by their father's tribal affiliation. Instead, some want it to be "Jew and Gentile, One in Messiah... the other in Christ."
Thanks, Rick,
ReplyDeleteSome people have hard time to understand that if you put a lipstick on a pig, its still remains a pig.....
Dan, I can normally follow you, but something you said to Derek confused me. When you said it was MJ that "blurred ethnic distinctions" and that Derek was a prime example, what did you mean?
ReplyDeleteJames,
ReplyDeleteDerek is a non-Jew who went through the ritual of a proselyte within Messianic Judaism, which I am sure included circumcision. As Rick commented, a wave of a knife does not change one's ethnicity, no matter how hard Mainstream Judaism and Messianic Judaism will try to convince us otherwise. Hence, my comment, that a pig always remains a pig even when you put lipstick on it.
You will not find in the One-Law movement people who will try to change your ethnicity.
Hope that helps.
"Hence, my comment, that a pig always remains a pig even when you put lipstick on it."
ReplyDeleteDan, who are you comparing to "pigs" putting on lipstick in the above comments - the Gentiles who choose undergo conversion to Judaism? It certainly appears that way from the context of your words.
Gene,
ReplyDeleteI think he got it....I think he got it.....
The concept of conversion, at least in the modern sense, has always been a little confusing to me. I know that, for instance, if a Gentile underwent a conversion in a Reform shul, they still wouldn't be considered Jewish enough to make Aliyah to Israel. I have some friends who attend the Chabad synagogue. The husband is Jewish and the wife's a Gentile. They have one son. When it was time for him to be Bar Mitzvahed, it was done at the Reform synagogue.
ReplyDeleteI wasn't even aware that one could actually convert to Judaism within the context of Messianic Judaism. Based on Paul's comments in Galatians, I thought it was completely unnecessary and even an insult to the Messiah if a Gentile felt he or she had to convert in order to worship the Messiah.
One of the ironies is that convert or natural Jew, once a Jewish person openly states that they are Messianic, all of the other modern Judaisms consider him or her a convert to Christianity. I've shared some of these conversations with my wife who attends the Chabad and her perspective is very much like that.
I sometimes wish I could have God's perspective on all this, even for a few seconds. If I could see clearly through His eyes, who would we all look like?
Good Shabbos, all.
@James: It is confusing - by design. Reading Shaye Cohen's "The Beginnings of Jewishness: Boundaries, Varieties, Uncertainties" is very enlightening. Cohen has no dog in this fight, and he is the foremost expert on the subject. There is not a shred of scholarly evidence that the First Century had a monolithic view of conversion to Judaism. Even more, he evicerates the arguments of normative Judaism and Bilateral Ecclesiology that pretend that there was any ancient practice to "become a Jew." It was not until the rise of Hellenism that it was even considered; and then it was only a man-made concept that was applied unevenly until the Mishnaic age.
ReplyDeleteAs Paul so wisely cautioned: Ritual conversion to Judaism (any flavor) is a man-made myth - and in no way changes one's ethnicity. In fact, it destroys the work of Messiah, Who supernaturally joined Jew and Gentile to the promises made to our fathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
"Reading Shaye Cohen's "The Beginnings of Jewishness: Boundaries, Varieties, Uncertainties" is very enlightening."
ReplyDeleteRick, I have read Cohen's books, including the one you mentioned. It's true that his research is great, and very fascinating. At the same time, as even the title of the book clearly expresses, Cohen openly acknowledges "uncertainties" in many of his conclusions.
"Cohen has no dog in this fight"
A romantic view of the man, but far from reality. Shaye J. D. Cohen is an ordained Conservative rabbi, and in times past he expressed no so friendly attitudes toward Orthodox critics who challenged his research.
"As Paul so wisely cautioned: Ritual conversion to Judaism (any flavor) is a man-made myth."
A VERY uninformed and prejudiced statement - Judaism always had a conversion procedure for Gentiles who wished to join Israel - at the very least it included circumcision, sacrifice and mikveh. Certainly, more rigorous PRE-conversion standards were added later (deep study, immersion in a Jewish community, examination by beit din) because Jews have matured as a nation and (especially in exile) they needed to protect the community from those who may be converting for personal gain (at one time Russian Jews disallowed conversions in Russia because poverty-stricken Gentiles wanted to convert just to gain access to famed Jewish benevolence programs) or took conversion lightly (not realizing the full ramifications of taking on the yoke of Torah).
"Who supernaturally joined Jew and Gentile to the promises made to our fathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. "
Gentiles are never called "children of Jacob," but rather of Abraham. This in itself is quite significant for "One-Law" to realize.
Ah, another book to buy. My wife will kill me. We're overflowing with books. :D
ReplyDeleteI've talked with the missus about the issue of conversion (not mine, just the generic topic). My point of view is that God made me a Gentile, so why should I "override" His decision with conversion. Her point of view is that some souls are Jewish souls, even if they're in Gentile bodies. I don't know if I can agree with that, but each person's decision is driven by their own perspectives, needs, and wants. I can only make decisions like that for me.
Hello!!! Gene!!!
ReplyDeleteRick said: "...Man-made myth..." Can you read English? Now, can you please show us in SCRIPTURES, one more time SCRIPTURES where we can find a mandate from god to the ritual of a proselyte?
Calm down, Dan, I wouldn't want you to pop a vein!
ReplyDelete"where we can find a mandate from god to the ritual of a proselyte"
You can find one clear a requirement in Exodus 12:48. It speaks of regarding Passover - before a Gentile can partake in it he must circumcise himself and his household, and THEN "he shall be as one that is born in the land" - in other words, a convert.
The second part, mikveh - mikveh is a general requirement when cleansing oneself of impurity (in a case of a convert, his or her idolatry would be the impurity). It signifies a new life, being "born again" if you will. We see it being practiced by Yochanan the Immerser and then by Yeshua himself, which means that by that time it was already a standard practice within Judaism. No one, not even Yeshua himself, raised objection as to where exactly in the Torah it could be found - and what's more, they used it themselves!
The sacrifice part. Jews were required to bring a Pesach sacrifice, therefore it was inferred from that a new convert to Judaism had to do the same as part of his conversion (so that he could partake in it).
Dan, you seem to have chosen to ignore the fact that G-d gave our people judges and leaders to interpret G-d's Torah and adopt it to circumstances - and Yeshua himself had no problem acknowledging their legal authority as leaders of our nation to do so (even if some of them were hypocrites, as ALL people are to a degree). Paul also accepted converts as a reality of Judaism of his day, a matter of fact (we read of them in NT, including some in the Jerusalem congregation - Nicholas).
@Gene: you said, "A VERY uninformed and prejudiced statement - Judaism always had a conversion procedure for Gentiles who wished to join Israel"
ReplyDeleteReally? "Always"? Can you find a single instance prior to 200 BCE?
You said, "Gentiles are never called "children of Jacob," but rather of Abraham."
Really? Can you prove that? Scripturally? Gentiles were aliens to the Promise (can you hear the word "Avot" in that?), and yet through Messiah's work have been brought near (can you hear the Tabernacle ritual in that?) - and all without that magic knife! (Eph 2-3)
Gene,
ReplyDeleteThank you so much for educating us that now Arabs who believe in a different God can do the Pesach (if the temple was up), But God-obeying Gentiles can't...Oy, Vey...
as for the rest, see my next blog.
"Really? "Always"? Can you find a single instance prior to 200 BCE?"
ReplyDeleteRick, I quoted for you a passage from Exodus 12:48 about a requirement for a Gentile who wished to observe Passover. Do you need me to provide you with an actual instance of that happening to a particular person - is not a prescription in the Torah evidence enough of a proof for you that these conversions took place? You want to argue ritual details?
Let's take marriage, for example - it is a fact before G-d, but the wedding procedure itself is not described in the Bible (yet, we know there were weddings in Israel, Yeshua attended one and even today they follow a certain established norm). Should we not have weddings then, since it's "man-made" (according to your "sola scriptura" stance)? In the same vein, is it too far fetch to accept that prior to a circumcision a Gentile had to have made a formal ritualized commitment to a Jewish nation? It may have been different in content at different times, but the essence remains the same to this day.
"Gentiles are never called "children of Jacob," but rather of Abraham." Really? Can you prove that? Scripturally?"
Sure, very easy. First of all, Gentiles are never called children of Jacob, but they ARE called children of Avraham by faith.(Galatians 3:7) Secondly, Avraham was called by G-d a "father of many nations" (Genesis 17:5), where's as Jacob / Israel is the father to only ONE nation - Israel (composed of tribes).
"Gentiles were aliens to the Promise (can you hear the word "Avot" in that?), and yet through Messiah's work have been brought near (can you hear the Tabernacle ritual in that?) - and all without that magic knife!"
Do you know what Promise are you talking about? The promise is that Abraham would become the father of many nations and that by his seed (Messiah/Israel) ALL nations would bless themselves. That's the promise. Not that Gentiles will become Israelites or that they should take on a Mosaic Covenant and live like Jews.
"I will make you the father of a multitude of nations." (Genesis 17:5)
"If you belong to Messiah, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:29)
"Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring--not only to those who are of the Torah but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all." (Romans 4:16)
Notice that the above clearly spells out the two different types descendants of Avraham - the Jews (of the Torah) and Gentiles (those adopted through faith in Yeshua).
Gene,
ReplyDeleteEngaging in selective reading a gain, don't you? whatever you don't like, you pretend of never reading it...
So, here it is again for you: Are you advocating that Arabs can do Pesach because circumcision is a requirement?
I guess if you continue to ignore this, we will assume you do advocate such, and I can then shout it out laud?
"So, here it is again for you: Are you advocating that Arabs can do Pesach because circumcision is a requirement?"
ReplyDeleteNo. Egyptians practiced circumcision as well, but was that enough for them? They too could only enter Israel in accordance to the Torah of Moses:
"The THIRD generation of children born to them MAY enter the assembly of ADONAI." (Deuteronomy 23:8)
What does the above tell you? Could any Gentile just waltz in and become a non-Hebrew "Israelite" through some ad-hoc at will observance of Torah? No, they had to follow a set guideline. In the above example, three things are apparent:
1. The rule for Egyptians (at least) was that only in a THIRD generation could they enter the assembly of Israel.
2. It was optional for them to do so.
3. The mixed multitude (many of them Egyptians, if not most), even if already circumcised (as Egyptians were) DID NOT automatically become "Israelites" (as some assume) but were simply foreigners living in Israel (who COULD convert, if they so choose, but only by following certain guidelines).
"Are you advocating that Arabs can do Pesach because circumcision is a requirement?"
Of course not (that's why our sages had a solution for that). To give you an analogy - can a Mormon get baptized into a Mormon faith, then abandon that false faith but then refuse to be baptized into Yeshua faith on the grounds that he's already been baptized by the Mormons? Is his Mormon baptism valid before G-d?
In the Exodus 12:48 example, does circumcision absolutely presuppose conversion or does it mean just circumcision? Also, this example (and it's only one) is focused on just the eating of the Pesach offering and no other aspect of Jewish religious life. It may be a requirement that addresses this specific context only.
ReplyDeleteI can see your point Gene, but this seems a little thin to establish a formal conversion ceremony being in existence in the time of Moses. At best it's a suggestion but it falls short of irrefutable proof.
@Gene, you equate circumcision with ritual conversion when you want to prove an ancient practice of conversion - but when that becomes untenable because of other undesirables (nasty Egyptians), you change your tune. Scripture is quite clear, and so is history. You said that you read Shaye Cohen's book - so don't you remember his systematic proof that formal conversion did not exist prior to the Hellenistic age?
ReplyDeleteTo say it did, is taking anachronism to new heights (or depths?). Using circumcision as the ultimate initiation would not have caused a problem before the Greek philosophical love of the "male form."
Additionally, when Israel was not keeping the commandments, there was no draw to join Israel. It was after the galut to Babylon that national Israel for once kept the commandments; and the result was the goyim became envious of having "such a wise G-d Who has given such wise statutes..."
As for Gentiles and the G-d of Jacob, Isaiah 2 is a perfect example. It was like a light-bulb going on for men like Paul - hence the expansive "Olive Tree" metaphor. The roots are the Patriarchs. If goyim are not connected to the roots, then how can they live?